Cloudy LIRR train windows aggravating riders, but no fix in sight
The problem is clear: LIRR train windows are not.
Sun-damaged plastic windows on the majority of the Long Island Rail Road's electric fleet have become a frequent target of complaints among the LIRR’s 280,000 daily commuters, many of whom say they often can’t tell what stop they're at because of the hazy view from their seats.
Seaford commuter Paul Erickson likened the murky view to "an impressionist’s painting."
"In the last couple years, it seems like a lot of them are glazed over ... It’s almost like there’s a piece of waxed paper put over the window," said Erickson, 52, a daily LIRR rider for 17 years. "People would like to relax on the way home, and part of that relaxing is looking out the window."
The problem is not unique to the LIRR. Sister-MTA railroad Metro-North also has been dealing with near-opaque windows, as has NJ Transit, which recently announced a $15 million window replacement effort.
Despite growing complaints from LIRR riders and unsuccessful experiments aimed at improving visibility, the railroad's president said there are no plans to replace the windows. Instead, the railroad will prioritize preventing the problem on future train cars, which likely are still years from being rolled out.
The problem is concentrated on the LIRR’s 828 M-7 electric trains, which make up more than 60% of the railroad’s fleet of about 1,300 cars. The windows on the cars, which first hit the rails in 2002, are made of a polycarbonate material that railroad officials said deteriorates over time as it is exposed to the sun’s ultraviolet rays.
The worn state of the LIRR’s windows after two decades should have been entirely predictable, according to Duane Priddy Sr., CEO of Plastic Expert Group of Midland, Michigan, which has studied the pros and cons of using plastic windows on trains.
"Twenty years is a long time," Priddy said. "After that, all bets are off."
In a statement, Aaron Donovan, spokesman for the Metropolitan Transportation Authority, the railroads’ parent organization, acknowledged the "window fogging," which he blamed on years of "sunlight exposure." But he noted the M-7 train cars "have a better long-term service reliability than any car that has ever run on the LIRR."
The LIRR’s newest fleet of M-9 cars use a similar window, and could similarly degrade over time, LIRR officials said. The 202 new train cars, which cost the LIRR about $3.6 million per car, began rolling out in 2019 and the last one arrived earlier this year.
The damage, which can include discoloration, blurriness and tiny cracks known as "crazing," is more evident on southern-facing windows. Because they can move in either direction, there's typically no need to turn electric trains around, LIRR officials said. On Metro-North trains, which travel north and south, the problem is more evenly distributed, according to the MTA.
"We’ve talked to different manufacturers and seen what we can do to slow that [deterioration] down, remediate it. To this point, we’re unable to do so," LIRR president Robert Free said when asked about the issue on Sept. 25. "To replace the windows would be an exorbitant amount of money and work, because we’d have to take the cars apart to get to those windows."
MTA officials would not provide a cost estimate for replacing the damaged windows.
While improving the view from the LIRR’s existing electric fleet may be a lost cause, Free said the railroad aims to avoid the problem in the future by returning to glass windows on its next fleet of trains, dubbed the M-9A. The LIRR previously used glass windows on trains before switching to polycarbonate because it was "much lighter, and we thought it would hold up better," Free said.
The 100 remaining M-3 cars still in service, despite being nearly 40 years old, offer passengers a clearer view than most newer trains.
But the MTA is only now beginning work on purchasing its next fleet of LIRR train cars. The MTA’s newly proposed 2025-29 capital program — which must be funded and approved by state lawmakers — earmarks $1.6 billion for new LIRR trains, including 160 M-9A cars.
The MTA still has not awarded a contract for the cars.
While MTA officials have suggested replacing the damaged windows isn’t a viable option, NJ Transit — the third-largest commuter railroad in the nation behind the LIRR and Metro-North — announced last month plans to do just that.
Facing complaints from its customers over the cloudiness of its windows, which are also polycarbonate and nearing the 20-year mark, NJ Transit said the $15 million will replace the windows on about 429 train cars.
In an Oct. 1 interview, NJ Transit spokesman Anthony Grieco said the agency arrived at the decision after consulting with infrastructure experts about possible solutions.
Ultimately, Grieco said, NJ Transit decided that "full replacement" was the most cost-effective option.
"Obviously, a significant element of the customer experience is your ride on board vehicles," Grieco said. "Ensuring we optimize the customer experience was certainly a priority."
Asked about NJ Transit’s choice, MTA chairman and CEO Janno Lieber, referencing several recent NJ Transit power-related service disruptions, said, "If I were a New Jerseyan, I would vote for repairing the power system first, rather than the view."
Commack resident Robert Austin, 54, who commutes on the LIRR from Huntington, said he "can understand how it irks a lot of people, because you want to try and, you know, kill some time and look out the window while you're on the railroad. And most of the time, you can't see anything other than just a blur."
He knows "everybody wants to keep their costs down" but wondered if the railroad could reduce the damage through polishing or buffing the hazy windows, as is routinely done on car headlights.
Before giving up on the old windows, or spending the money to replace them, Priddy, the window expert, also suggested "investing in some attempts to remediate the problem," like buffing or using waxes that can fill in tiny scratches.
MTA spokesman David Steckel said, "Past experiments were not successful and were labor intensive." He noted some of the damage is well below the surface, and that buffing could make the windows even more vulnerable to damage because it would further wear away a protective coating on all the windows.
The vulnerabilities of polycarbonate materials are well known, noted Priddy, who said his firm has performed several "forensic failure analyses" for windows. In addition to oxidation damage from UV rays, the windows can lose their transparency due to abrasions caused by tiny particles in the air, and because of chemicals in cleaning agents and in the rain.
While glass windows are heavier — potentially driving up energy costs — and more prone to fracturing, Priddy said they are less vulnerable to the elements.
Waiting for his train to pull out at Grand Central Madison, commuter William Gonzalez said the condition of the window beside him "doesn’t really bother me." He said he could think of better uses of the LIRR’s money, including reducing fares.
"Usually, I know where I’m going, so I can anticipate what the environment is going to be outside the window," Gonzalez, of the Bronx, said. "They can have all these windows blacked out. I’ll be OK, so long as I get there."
The problem is clear: LIRR train windows are not.
Sun-damaged plastic windows on the majority of the Long Island Rail Road's electric fleet have become a frequent target of complaints among the LIRR’s 280,000 daily commuters, many of whom say they often can’t tell what stop they're at because of the hazy view from their seats.
Seaford commuter Paul Erickson likened the murky view to "an impressionist’s painting."
"In the last couple years, it seems like a lot of them are glazed over ... It’s almost like there’s a piece of waxed paper put over the window," said Erickson, 52, a daily LIRR rider for 17 years. "People would like to relax on the way home, and part of that relaxing is looking out the window."
WHAT TO KNOW
- Long Island commuters have increasingly been complaining about the condition of plastic LIRR train windows, many of which have become so cloudy that passengers have trouble seeing out of them.
- LIRR officials said the damage is primarily due to ultraviolet sun rays and is concentrated on the south-facing windows of the LIRR's M-7 electric trains, which are around 20 years old and make up the majority of the railroad's fleet.
- Because "experiments" to improve visibility were unsuccessful and labor intensive, and officials said replacing windows would not be cost effective, the LIRR is focusing on preventing the problem on future trains, which will return to using glass windows.
The problem is not unique to the LIRR. Sister-MTA railroad Metro-North also has been dealing with near-opaque windows, as has NJ Transit, which recently announced a $15 million window replacement effort.
Despite growing complaints from LIRR riders and unsuccessful experiments aimed at improving visibility, the railroad's president said there are no plans to replace the windows. Instead, the railroad will prioritize preventing the problem on future train cars, which likely are still years from being rolled out.
The problem is concentrated on the LIRR’s 828 M-7 electric trains, which make up more than 60% of the railroad’s fleet of about 1,300 cars. The windows on the cars, which first hit the rails in 2002, are made of a polycarbonate material that railroad officials said deteriorates over time as it is exposed to the sun’s ultraviolet rays.
The worn state of the LIRR’s windows after two decades should have been entirely predictable, according to Duane Priddy Sr., CEO of Plastic Expert Group of Midland, Michigan, which has studied the pros and cons of using plastic windows on trains.
"Twenty years is a long time," Priddy said. "After that, all bets are off."
In a statement, Aaron Donovan, spokesman for the Metropolitan Transportation Authority, the railroads’ parent organization, acknowledged the "window fogging," which he blamed on years of "sunlight exposure." But he noted the M-7 train cars "have a better long-term service reliability than any car that has ever run on the LIRR."
Newest trains use same material
The LIRR’s newest fleet of M-9 cars use a similar window, and could similarly degrade over time, LIRR officials said. The 202 new train cars, which cost the LIRR about $3.6 million per car, began rolling out in 2019 and the last one arrived earlier this year.
The damage, which can include discoloration, blurriness and tiny cracks known as "crazing," is more evident on southern-facing windows. Because they can move in either direction, there's typically no need to turn electric trains around, LIRR officials said. On Metro-North trains, which travel north and south, the problem is more evenly distributed, according to the MTA.
"We’ve talked to different manufacturers and seen what we can do to slow that [deterioration] down, remediate it. To this point, we’re unable to do so," LIRR president Robert Free said when asked about the issue on Sept. 25. "To replace the windows would be an exorbitant amount of money and work, because we’d have to take the cars apart to get to those windows."
MTA officials would not provide a cost estimate for replacing the damaged windows.
The LIRR said past experiments to buff or polish the windows "were not successful and were labor intensive." Credit: Ed Quinn
While improving the view from the LIRR’s existing electric fleet may be a lost cause, Free said the railroad aims to avoid the problem in the future by returning to glass windows on its next fleet of trains, dubbed the M-9A. The LIRR previously used glass windows on trains before switching to polycarbonate because it was "much lighter, and we thought it would hold up better," Free said.
The 100 remaining M-3 cars still in service, despite being nearly 40 years old, offer passengers a clearer view than most newer trains.
But the MTA is only now beginning work on purchasing its next fleet of LIRR train cars. The MTA’s newly proposed 2025-29 capital program — which must be funded and approved by state lawmakers — earmarks $1.6 billion for new LIRR trains, including 160 M-9A cars.
The MTA still has not awarded a contract for the cars.
NJ Transit: $15M for window replacement
While MTA officials have suggested replacing the damaged windows isn’t a viable option, NJ Transit — the third-largest commuter railroad in the nation behind the LIRR and Metro-North — announced last month plans to do just that.
Facing complaints from its customers over the cloudiness of its windows, which are also polycarbonate and nearing the 20-year mark, NJ Transit said the $15 million will replace the windows on about 429 train cars.
In an Oct. 1 interview, NJ Transit spokesman Anthony Grieco said the agency arrived at the decision after consulting with infrastructure experts about possible solutions.
Ultimately, Grieco said, NJ Transit decided that "full replacement" was the most cost-effective option.
"Obviously, a significant element of the customer experience is your ride on board vehicles," Grieco said. "Ensuring we optimize the customer experience was certainly a priority."
Asked about NJ Transit’s choice, MTA chairman and CEO Janno Lieber, referencing several recent NJ Transit power-related service disruptions, said, "If I were a New Jerseyan, I would vote for repairing the power system first, rather than the view."
Commack resident Robert Austin, 54, who commutes on the LIRR from Huntington, said he "can understand how it irks a lot of people, because you want to try and, you know, kill some time and look out the window while you're on the railroad. And most of the time, you can't see anything other than just a blur."
He knows "everybody wants to keep their costs down" but wondered if the railroad could reduce the damage through polishing or buffing the hazy windows, as is routinely done on car headlights.
Before giving up on the old windows, or spending the money to replace them, Priddy, the window expert, also suggested "investing in some attempts to remediate the problem," like buffing or using waxes that can fill in tiny scratches.
MTA: Buffing could be worse
MTA spokesman David Steckel said, "Past experiments were not successful and were labor intensive." He noted some of the damage is well below the surface, and that buffing could make the windows even more vulnerable to damage because it would further wear away a protective coating on all the windows.
The vulnerabilities of polycarbonate materials are well known, noted Priddy, who said his firm has performed several "forensic failure analyses" for windows. In addition to oxidation damage from UV rays, the windows can lose their transparency due to abrasions caused by tiny particles in the air, and because of chemicals in cleaning agents and in the rain.
While glass windows are heavier — potentially driving up energy costs — and more prone to fracturing, Priddy said they are less vulnerable to the elements.
William Gonzalez, of the Bronx, is not concerned about the state of the windows. Credit: Ed Quinn
Waiting for his train to pull out at Grand Central Madison, commuter William Gonzalez said the condition of the window beside him "doesn’t really bother me." He said he could think of better uses of the LIRR’s money, including reducing fares.
"Usually, I know where I’m going, so I can anticipate what the environment is going to be outside the window," Gonzalez, of the Bronx, said. "They can have all these windows blacked out. I’ll be OK, so long as I get there."
Alfonso Castillo has been reporting for Newsday since 1999 and covering the transportation beat since 2008. He grew up in the Bronx and Queens and now lives in Valley Stream with his wife and two sons.
Updated 16 minutes ago Zeldin drive-by shooter sentencing ... Southern State fatal crash ... Yankees, Mets win ... Foggy LIRR windows
Updated 16 minutes ago Zeldin drive-by shooter sentencing ... Southern State fatal crash ... Yankees, Mets win ... Foggy LIRR windows
